Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: A note to our listeners. This episode contains mention of suicide and self harm.
From Children's center in Vancouver, Washington, this is Hope and Healing. I'm Matthew Butte, Executive Director of Children's center and your host. We make this podcast in order to bring you hopeful stories and to introduce you to people who inspire hope. They've inspired a lot of hope in me and among people here at Children's center and I hope you feel the same. Jenny Lawson is one of the funniest writers and people you are likely to run across. Her writing is also personal, heartfelt and revealing as it chronicles Jenny's journey through a world that includes persistent treatment, resistant depression and anxiety.
She's candid about it and approaches this complicated subject with wisdom, warmth and vulnerability. And if you don't think a journey like that can be incredibly funny, you haven't met Jenny Lawson. Good thing you're about to.
Jenny's books, including Broken in the Best Possible Way, Furiously Happy, and let's Pretend this Never Happened have been number one New York Times bestsellers. And she's a wife and a mom, pet owner, enthusiastic collector of bad taxidermy. We'll get to that in a little bit. And owner of a bookstore called Nowhere in San Antonio, where she lives and where we reached her.
Hello Jenny. Thank you so much for joining us. It's such a pleasure to meet you and really appreciate you giving us some of your time.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: I'm in my office here in Vancouver with a nice cup of Earl Grey tea. How about you? What are you drinking this morning?
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I am drinking Diet Coke out of a barbecue cup because it's Texas. I think I'm the only person in the world who doesn't like coffee. So that's how I start my morning, is with Diet Coke. And if it was the evening, there might be a little rum in it. But it's still early, so.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Still early. So just the Diet Coke. That is a Texas size cup. I have to say I've only been to Texas a couple of times and that's what I picture Texans drinking their morning drink out of.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: So we don't do things halfway. Whether it's good or bad, Texas does.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: It all that goes big. I like it. Well, I, I was introduced to, to you and your work last December. So one of my colleagues, we had a Secret Santa thing, like a lot of offices and my secret Santa gift was your book Furiously Happy. Though I use the word secret kind of loosely because within an hour of receiving this gift and A nice chocolate cake with it. The Santa came into my office and disclosed who they were. One of our therapists, Ashley, because she's so excited for me to get this book and she wanted me to know that I am just absolutely going to love it, which I do. And I think in many ways, for me, that also kind of provides a nice introduction to the book itself and your work, because it really is about no secrets. It's like, here you are. It's truth is, would that be kind of an accurate introduction to the work you're doing?
[00:03:11] Speaker B: I. I think so.
You know, when I first started writing, I thought, I just want to share funny things and, you know, things that, that are strange and weird in the same way that I am.
And I. What I realized is that I needed to be more honest about where my life was compared to what my work was.
Because whenever I would share these funny posts and funny stories and people would just be like this, that's hilarious. That's so funny. But it might be during a time when I was in a depression where I was just clinging to the couch and the only thing I could do was just breathe. And I finally decided I just needed to be honest about it. And I had such a great experience with people coming back and saying, me too, me too.
I actually feel very lucky because this was, oh, gosh, 15 years ago, I guess. So, um, it was. I, I think the stigma is less now, but even 15 years ago, it was still a little bit difficult. But what was interesting is when I did finally come out and say, I deal with depression, I deal with anxiety, and, you know, I just need to be honest about this because it feels like I'm, I'm lying and not being honest about all of my issues. And I had all of these people who came and said, me too, me too.
And what was really interesting is that after that I had a lot of people who came and said that they were in the process of planning their suicide and decided to get help. Not, not because of what I wrote, but because thousands of other people saying, me too. I, I often also hear those lies that depression tells me that I'm, you know, not worth it. And, and they read those and they thought, well, that, that can't possibly be true. And then they thought, well, if that's, if that's not true for other people, then maybe it's not true for me too. Maybe I also, you know, deserve to get help. And I always think it's really interesting that there are all of these people who anonymously. I also Struggle and they have no idea that they saved people's lives.
So. So, yeah, so I. I very much believe in no secrets, lay it all out there and people listen and people understand. And. And every time that I start to think this will be the time that people go, oh, this is too far. Like, this is, you know, self harm or, you know, any of the things that I share. When I start to think this will be the time that people get scared instead.
That's the time that people either say, I thought it was me, or more likely, I get a lot of responses of people who say, my wife deals with this and I never understood it before until I read it the way that you explained it and now I have a better understanding of it, or my child has the same issue and now I get it a little bit more, which is always lovely.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: The power of story and honesty and vulnerability.
It seems like in doing that you've really built a community around you that's responded so well and also saved lives in the process. And that keeping quiet has not helped anyone. But it takes a lot of courage, I think, for someone to go ahead and say, this is what's happening to me, which you've done, Jenny, and so grateful for that as so many other people are in that journey. In sharing a story, you have put some words together that you don't often see very often.
Funny and mental illness.
You don't see that in the same sentence very often. How do you put those things together for me?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Well, it's a couple of things. First off, I have a tendency to.
My brain doesn't work, I think in the same way as most people.
And so I have a tendency to have very strange thoughts and I like to share them because I have ADHD and no filters and I kind of ramble. And so I found that when I was sharing that, first of all, it felt like I was the most authentic. Secondly, it either. Either entertained people so that they could say, okay, well, I'm not doing too bad because this lady is what. What is going on?
Or it gave people permission to share their own weirdness, which even made it funnier.
And then I also think there is something so amazing about laughing and at terrible, scary things that makes them smaller. That. And. And it's. It can be hard to do because I think a lot of times people can look at it and go, you can't make jokes about, you know, depression or anxiety or suicidal ideation or things like that.
And I totally get. Because I suffer from all of those. And none of those are Laughing matters. But there is something funny in every part of the human experience. And if we can laugh about more relatable, it makes it in some way smaller. And I think it also gives sort of an access point for people who may not understand it to say, okay, well, I laughed about that. That was kind of funny. Maybe I do want to read more about this. Maybe it doesn't all have to be, you know, super dark or really scary or really serious. And so it's a. It's a great access point for people who may not necessarily want to read about something like that, but instead they're like, okay, but this is just a humor book, and it happens to have a lot of serious topics in, you know, scattered in there.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. If you change this title to something Jenny's Experience with Mental Illness, you may not have sold as many books, but you gave us that with a lot of laughter as well. And I think that makes it so much more accessible and humanizes it for all of us. Um, and so maybe that's for your next book, Jenny. I don't know. But the serious volume, that's my next title. The next title. For those of you that didn't read the funny one, here's the more serious one.
So would you. I mean, clearly you sharing your story has been healing for you and for a lot of other people.
What about folks that are listening today and they're holding this their own experience of mental illness really tightly. It's scary to share it. There's still a lot of stigma around it, still a lot of shame and guilt.
What might you say to them?
[00:10:32] Speaker B: I would say, first of all, you own your story, so you are totally in control of what you want to share and what you don't want to. And I think that's important to keep in mind.
But I will say there is an incredible freedom that comes from being honest about your struggles and that allows other people to be honest about theirs.
One of the things that I have found that is such a gift because I deal with a lot of different types of mental illnesses. I never quite know what's going to be going on from day to day with my head. And so, for example, I had to go into downtown San Antonio to do this meeting, and I was exhausted just thinking about the. The energy that it was going to take for me to take a shower and drive and park and. And I think for a lot of people who don't deal with depression or chronic illness, it can be hard to understand that that is an exhausting Amount of. Of energy. And so I sent an email and said, I know this is. This is going to sound dumb, but I.
I don't have the energy to do this. Is there any way that we can do this through zoom? And. And I. And I felt. I felt silly because it. Everybody else could make it to this meeting. Uh, and what happened is I got all these responses from people saying, yes. Oh, my God. I'm actually so glad you said that, because I'm having the worst day, and I'm. I'm dealing with this, and I'm dealing with. Oh, that's so. And so in some ways, if you're honest about the fact that you have these limitations, it creates such a more gentle place for the rest of the world, where everybody else can also say, oh, I also deal with this. It also creates this on ramp. If you.
If I talk about the fact that, you know, here's the difference between, you know, an anxiety attack versus a panic attack, and then somebody listens and says, oh, I've had anxiety attacks. And I. I never realized that before. I. But I don't have anxiety disorder. I'm like, well, yeah, but you can have anxiety attacks and not have anxiety disorder. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, well, this is so much more relatable because I. I heard of anxiety disorder. Okay, so this is sort of part of what you're feeling. I'm like, yeah, that's. That's like one of the symptoms. And. And so it's. It's sort of an on ramp for them to understand that. And it's also a great way to give them future permission to say, I didn't understand depression before, but I feel like I've had the flu for the last two months because I can't move, and there's something wrong with me, and I don't know what it is. And maybe that's what it is. Maybe. And it gives them permission to say, maybe I need to. Maybe I can talk to you about this. Maybe I can ask you about this. Maybe I can get, you know, do you have good suggestions for what you. How do I talk to my doctor? Should I talk to a therapist first? Should I? It's just. It makes it a softer world for everyone, but it is hard, and not everybody has the ability to. And there are. I am very, you know, privileged in that at this point in my life. This is what I do for a living is. Is right. And so it's easier for me. But at the same time, I think there are a lot of people who might be in positions where they. They can't necessarily share that, but I would say share it as much as you can. At the very least, share it with the people that you trust, because you would be surprised how many other people are dealing with the same thing or who have loved ones who are dealing with the same thing. So often I have people who are like, I didn't even think anxiety disorder existed. And then now my kid has it, and, oh, my gosh, this is crippling. And I'm having to learn all of these processes, and it's getting better. But, yeah, being able to.
To sort of lay that groundwork and say it exists, it's out there, and not only can it get better, but there are. There are so many resources, there are so many tools. And, you know, for a lot of people like me, I have.
What is it called? Treatment resistant depression. I'll probably have it forever. And it was just something I was born with. Nothing happened to me. Um, it's just chemical and my. You know, it's. It's hereditary. A lot of people in my family have it.
But there's something about being able to be honest about the fact that sometimes I am absolutely in the darkest depths. But because I know I've come out of it so many times, even when I'm in it in one of those dark places. And I think because it's so easy to listen to those lies that depression tells when you're in it and you're just like, okay, well, I'll never get better, or I'm not worth struggling for. It's so hard to get medication and to go to your therapist appointment and get all the treatment. But because I've come out of it so many times, I sort of feel like I'm a little bit of a lighthouse so that people can look and go, it's okay during the times when I can't focus and I can't function and I'll get out. And that you can still be successful and happy and do all the things that you want to do, even if you are dealing with something as hard as mental illness in the same way. I mean, with any chronic illness, that's.
There's always good and there's bad.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: I love what you were saying about this can help contribute to a gentler world for everyone.
And then those additional encounters that you can have where it can be a learning opportunity for others, others can come out and talk about their own issues. And the example of you needing to take that trip, wondering, should I be Honest about. I mean, I would imagine that's the dialogue people are having. Should I be honest? Am I sick? I mean, whatever other reasons we might give, or do we just go ahead and kind of somehow make it work, but that, again, that honesty allows other people to then be open as well.
I love that vision.
So just in terms of. You have a friend you mentioned, and I'm so sorry, Jenny, the struggle through that treatment, resistant depression.
Can't imagine how hard that is.
But also that encouragement that you give to others, that you will get through it. Even though this will come back, there will be times when you come through it and you have a friend that helps you, it seems, through this. And his name is Roy. And wonder if you can tell us a little about Roy.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Rory is a roadkill raccoon. That one of my friends. I collect taxidermy. My father was a taxidermist, and I collect taxidermy. That is that. I call it ethical taxidermy. So, like, roadkill things that died of natural causes, and then I dress them up and I, you know, do ridiculous things with them. And one of my friends found this roadkill raccoon and made him the most beautiful. He's just. He's got these.
He's got these. These eyes and these. These hands that are coming out, and they're so excited, and they're. Oh, they're just. He's just thrilled. And I saw him and I was instantly like, this needs to be my. My. My little animal. This needs to be mine. And so. So I bought him, and he is on the COVID of Furiously Happy. So there's a dead, furiously happy raccoon because he is furiously happy out of spite. And I thought, this is exactly what I want. I want to be.
I want to be exactly like this raccoon. And he's been through so much. He's had all of his fingers broken off. He's had just. He's gone through just. He went on roller coasters. He's just gone through a lot, but he is still happy and smiling. And, yeah, people always. They. They love the COVID And they're like, this raccoon is so cute. Is this your pet? And then they read a little further and they're like, oh, oh, no.
But I did have pet pet raccoons when I was growing up, and.
And they're very. They're very sweet, and they stink so badly. Everybody's always like, oh, I want a raccoon. You don't. You really don't. They're a mess. They smell awful. They they're super. They're very. I actually related to them a lot because they have OCD with washing things. And so one of the raccoons, when I came home, he had turned on the sink and he had a piece of soap that had been a full, full size soap when I had left. And it was just down to this tiny little sliver. And he was just. He was just looking at me like, please save me from myself, please. And I was like, oh, baby. And he still stunk. It didn't matter.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: The whole, you know, just gonna happen.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I don't. I don't recommend it. They're. They're wild animals on purpose. Let them be wild.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: Leave them out there. What bizarre thing happened. So. And I'm so sorry. When we were first scheduled, you were sick. The night before our first scheduled interview, though, I'm out for a walk with my sons and our dog. And we do have raccoons. See occasionally roadkill raccoon. Half a mile into our walk. And it crossed my mind, Jenny, do I take this home? Do I get one too?
The lads weren't having it, so who knows what happened to that. But I thought it was kind of funny that that happened before we were scheduled.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: And that is fantastic. You should have put it in the freezer. My dad would have happily mounted it for you.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Excellent. Okay. Next time, should I see one. I'll bear that in that kind offer in my. Jenny, it's generous of you and your dad. Thank you.
But you have. It's this. So you. When you, You. You wrote once that in referring to mental illness, it's. Or mentally ill. It's a phrase that once scared me, but now I wear it like an old jacket. Comfortable but ugly. It keeps me warm when people look at me as if I've lost my mind. I haven't. I'm mentally ill. I love that. Can you share a little about your, you know, your old, comfortable, ugly jacket?
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think there's just a wonderful thing about accepting who you are, even if that thing can be painful. And so wearing that out loud, I find is very freeing.
I actually really enjoy the fact that I can be honest about strange struggles that I have and people will just. And. And I can just say, you know, sorry, I. You know, I. I have this. For example, I have a nervous tic where I blink my eyes too hard. And my grandfather actually had a very similar thing. And so he would wear. He looked like a mafia, like Mafioso, and he would wear these super dark glasses. Because what he said was, I don't want the young girls to think that I'm winking at them. And I was like, okay, you're 90. No young girl is like, oh, this grandpa's trying to come on to me.
And. And when I started developing the same sort of tick, I.
I felt really embarrassed about it at first. And then I thought, you know what? I just need to be honest about it, that it's just. It comes from nerves. And so after that, very often I would. Like, right at the first, I would say, hey, by the way, I have this nervous chick. I'm sorry. That's.
I was doing a.
Like, a book tour kind of thing for. So Ali Brosh, who's one of my favorite authors who writes about depression, she wrote Hyperbole and a Half is what she's really famous for. And she deals with mental illness even on a much stronger level than I do. And so when her book came out, she was like, okay, I'm gonna do a tour, but will you. Can we do, like, an online zoom from a. We'll. We'll hide in our own blanket forts and. And let people in. And I was like, that sounds great. Let's. Let's totally do it. And I was so excited about it. And when we started, I said, I have to let you know that I have this. This nervous tic. And it looks weird because sometimes I blink really hard. And she was like, oh, my God. Do it. Do it right now. And after a minute, it happened. She was like, oh, my God, that is so cute. I love that so much. That is adorable. And all of a sudden, it went from this thing that I was really embarrassed about to something that gave me this. Every time that I do it, I think Ali Brosh thinks it's cute. You know, it's. It's okay. It's all right. Just the idea of being honest about that. I do have these strange things that kind of follow me around and being able to say, hey, by the way, I've got this, and I've got this, and this is gonna. I'm gonna do this weird thing and some Irish goodbye all the time, where all of a sudden I'm, like, overwhelmed, and I just disappear. And I'm just gonna tell you beforehand that happens.
And it's. It's sort of lovely that people at a certain point go, oh, that's just Jenny.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Like, yeah, There's a lot of fear for people to share that story. And you have this kind of enthusiasm. Courageous spirit. License has always been there. That's probably helped a lot with that.
For those that. That are still fearful, how do you kind of take the fear out of mental illness? I suppose.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: I think there's a lot of different ways that you can do it.
I think sometimes. Sometimes labels can be really helpful because you can say, okay, well, here is this. So I have inattentive adhd, okay? And then I look it up and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this. I found my people. These are, okay, great. So in some ways that can be really helpful to find a community of people who are all dealing with similar issues.
I think sometimes just the opposite can be helpful. If you.
Instead of saying, like, here's my. My label of, like, I have depression, there are some people who just say, like, I'm walking with the black dog, or I. You know, my mind goes to dark places sometimes or.
And. And people can understand that. So I think sometimes that can be an easier way to sort of share is to do it without there actually being a medical label that you want to share if that's something that you. That you're not comfortable with.
I think finding people that you trust to talk to makes a big difference.
And if you don't have those people in your life, I would say going out and finding those people can be helpful, which is. Can be really hard. But there are a lot of groups that are online groups or text only groups, things that you can find online where you can talk to other peers. And I think that can be helpful and it can, like, slowly give you permission to be more honest.
I also think one of. It's one of the best gifts that you can give to the people that you love.
You know, for a long time, when my kid was growing up, I was very. I would. I would just say, like, you know, mommy's just tired. Mommy's a little sick. During times when. When I couldn't do anything, when. When literally it was like, okay, well, for today, the only thing I can do is just lay on the couch, wait for today to be over.
And so on those days, we. I would call this Doctor who days, because I would turn on Doctor who and. And I would say, oh, Haley, today we're going to. We're going to. It's a Doctor who day. And we would sit on the couch and watch Doctor who. And I always felt bad because all the other moms were like, they were in the PTA and they were making dinner for their kids, and they were. And I was doing nothing, and the house was a mess, and I was like, we're just going to eat, you know, bread and butter and microwave macaroni and cheese. And when they got older and I was able to tell them, hey, this is what that was. And I'm so sorry. I wish I, I wish I was stronger, but this is the way that it was.
What I, What I was really shocked with is they were like, but those were some of my favorite times because you were completely with me. You weren't like, oh, I've got to make dinner. Oh, I've got to do this. Oh, I've got to clean the house. Oh, I've. You were just there with me.
So I think a lot of times we have this tendency to look at ourselves and think, oh, I look like so much more of a failure.
And, and really, it. It. That's not accurate. That's not really the way that it comes across. And especially with depression, it may not even be accurate at all. It's just depression giving you those. Those weird ideas. But it's also really helpful because when I was honest about, you know, with. With my family, and it gives them permission to come later and say, hey, I. I'm kind of struggling with something, and, and they know that I'm a safe place to come to.
When I first came out about having mental illness, my dad was just like, I think this is a bad idea. What are you doing? What? I don't think you should do this. And, and, and not in a, like, shameful way, but just a. Oh, are you?
And not very long after, he said, you know what? I was wrong. And not only was I wrong, but I'm going to be honest about the fact that I deal with mental illness, too. And every person that you invite to be honest about their journey, they can inspire another person to be honest about their journey. And then all of a sudden, there's so much less stigma because we realize, oh, we're all weird. We're all. Every single one of us has something that other people would look at us and go, what? I don't understand that. But then they have some weird thing that I'm like, I don't get that either. But you know what? Okay, all right, I'll accept it. How can I help?
[00:30:31] Speaker A: So in one of your blogs recently, you kind of. You talked about depression a wee bit ago, and you had this picture you present, and you said, it's kind of embarrassing to put this out on the web. Picture of your. And your garbage labyrinth.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: And then next to it was this organized piece.
You tell us about that.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I have I think a lot of people with depression deal with this.
A lot of actually mental illnesses go back to this idea of first of all, not having the energy to be able to pick up and organize. Secondly, the idea of out of sight, out of mind.
I have a tendency to make these big, I call them doom piles where I'm like, okay, everything's a mess, but if I just pile it up, then that's a doom pile I can deal with later when I have energy and different parts of your house maybe become sort of a catch all or a juncture. And so there was this room that was. Whenever I couldn't deal with something, I would put it in this room. It is actually the room that I'm in right now.
Yeah. And when I had Covid, I. This was one of the. Because I wanted to stay separate from all of my family. And so this was one of the only rooms that I could go into. And it was, it just looked like a hoarder's paradise. And I had to like, make a path through it.
And all of a sudden, after a very long period of time, I had a, what I call like a normality where all of a sudden I can do things a normal person can do and it doesn't feel like I'm slogging through quicksand and all of these things that normally I would say this is going to be so exhausting and can be so exhausting I could do in five minutes. And it's, it's such a, it's such an amazing thing because whenever it happens to me, I always think, is this what it's like for most people when they can just say, oh yeah, I can take a meeting that's not going to exhaust me for the rest of the day? Oh yeah, I can do this, I can do. But during that period of time, it was almost a week where I had like full strength of a, I don't know, a normal quote unquote person. And I cleaned the whole thing and I've been trying to, you know, keep it, you know, picked up.
But. But was something that I had a lot of shame about showing that image because it is, it's messy, you know, but life is messy. And what I found is that so many people were like, I have, I have that same room. And a lot of people who were like, I'm living in that house right now, like, that is my life. And I. And I'm so ashamed to like have people over or, you know, even ask for help. And one of the things that, that I Got out of this. That was really helpful. When I was. Toward the end, I started to sort of run out of steam and I started to get more into my normal, you know, 70%. 70% human is kind of where I live most of my life. And so what I did was I used body doubling, which is this process where. And it sounds really ridiculous, but it absolutely works, or at least for me, it doesn't for a lot of other people, but it's just where you have someone else with you when you're doing something to keep you on track, and they're not doing it with you. You. They're not telling you what to do, but they're just with you while you're doing it. And it makes your head a less lonely place, and it makes you focused on staying wherever you are.
And I use it. I use it quite a lot. I use it when my kid is home from college. Very often, if I'm behind on writing, like right now, I'm two months behind on a book that's due. I will say, hey, you want to do some body doubling? And they will sit next to me with their laptop open doing their chemistry homework, and I will sit here. And just knowing that I have someone here makes the work less lonely and so inviting people over to help you. And you can even do that online.
One of the things that. That I've started doing that was really helpful. The. The book that I'm working on right now is actually all about the tools that. That I have found that have worked.
And yeah, so it's. And. And it's half is about like, you know, mental illness and memory and focus and depression and all that. And the other half is about creativity because there's. Mental illness and creativity go together.
There is such a strong, I think, bond between people who struggle, who also are very creative. And we've all really seen this, you know, like poets and authors and artists who deal with depression and mental illness.
And. But one of the things that I'm.
That I used that's in the book and that helps with the book is they have these things called.
They're either called their quiet hours or quiet writing. And it's basically just these online zoom sessions that you pull up and everybody's writing and nobody's talking. Maybe at the very beginning, somebody will say, like, okay, everybody, so, you know, we're going to be writing for an hour and, you know, go. And then the chat will be open. And so as I'm writing, if I'm like, oh my God, what is the Word for that thing. When, when you can't think of the word, but then you almost think of the word but then it's not. I don't know. And I can go into the chat and somebody else will see it and they'll be like, oh, it was. Oh, it's this, this. I'm like, okay, great. And just seeing all of these other people also focused on working, I like, I think it's probably what a neurotypical person gets out of being at Starbucks and like writing their play. I. That is so distracting for me. That would be the wor. I would be like, everybody's looking at me. What is happening? No, and it sounds utterly ridiculous, right? The idea that me looking at 20 complete strangers in silence, typing away, that shouldn't help me, but it does. And I think there's something so great about finding those tools that may seem ridiculous. And all of a sudden you think, oh, oh, this worked. Here's this, this life hack. Here's this hint, here's this. This is how the world gets better.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: In the context of mental illness. What gives you hope?
[00:37:39] Speaker B: What gives me hope? A lot of things.
What gives me hope is the fact that we are more honest than ever.
I think we are more kind in general.
It can feel, it can feel difficult to see that because I think the loudest people get attention and sometimes the loudest people are cruel.
But there are more people out there in the world who want to help you than want to hurt you way more.
It gives me hope that we have so many more resources now than we have ever had.
I this. Earlier this year, I came across these art pieces at an estate sale. And they were images that were made in the 1950s by a woman who was in a mental institution here in San Antonio. And they were so upsetting and harrowing. And I already knew because she actually was at one of the mental institutions that my great grandmother had died in. And so, so I already knew that, you know, the treatment was like, truly, they would put you in insulin comas, they would forced freezing cold baths.
And I look at how far we have come from that period when first of all, nobody talked about it. Secondly, people were locked away.
The treatment truly, like even very well intentioned, brutal.
And I look at where we are now and I think we're so lucky. And also we continue to learn.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Jenny, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure to meet you and wish you well in all your work.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. This was actually really fun. I loved this. This is the best part of my day. Thank you.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Oh thank you. Likewise. Jenny Lawson's books are available wherever books are sold. Her very entertaining blog is theblogs.com 2G's and 2S's in blog s.
Hope and Healing was produced by Jenny Hope Heisel and John Moe. Music by concert rock violinist Erin Meyer. This podcast was presented by Children's center in Vancouver, Washington. Children's Center's mission is to serve children, youth and families through comprehensive community based mental health services.
A reminder as we mention on every episode, the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline can be reached in the United States by court calling or texting. 988 it's free and available 247 I'm Matthew Butte and thank you for listening.
